Cheryl Pope on Building Stronger Law Firms Through Communication and Culture

This transcript of Raising the Bar with RebuttalPR was generated using AI transcription and lightly edited for readability. It may contain errors, and speaker labels are approximate. The audio recording is the authoritative version.

Welcome to Raising the Bar with RebuttalPR, the podcast where we elevate the stories of the plaintiff's bar and dive into the key trends shaping the civil justice system today. I'm your host, Ray DeLorenzi, and in each episode, we'll bring you insightful interviews with leading attorneys, expert perspectives on current legal events, and in-depth discussions on the issues that matter most. Now, let's jump in.

There's always new problems, but the people who are proactive and look at their business in what I call more of a chess approach than a checkers approach are the ones who are going to reap the rewards, because there's always going to be a new problem to solve.

Ray: Hey, everyone, welcome to a new episode of Raising the Bar with RebuttalPR. I'm your host, Ray DeLorenzi, and today I have sort of a different guest, a special guest, Cheryl Pope. She is an organizational effectiveness consultant and executive coach. Cheryl is the founder of Carlton Human Capital. Here's why I wanted Cheryl on today, because that bio is nice, but it doesn't really describe, I think, what Cheryl does. And I always like to say, you know, some people may have a personal therapist in their life, and Cheryl is my professional therapist. She helps me figure out how to operate a better, more efficient, more communicative workplace to get the best out of our team and also do the best work for our clients. And while she is a partner for RebuttalPR, she's also a partner for many plaintiff law firms who have hired her to make their firms more efficient, again, provide better client service and just be better operating machines. So this is a different episode than we typically do, but I think folks are going to find a lot of value in it. And I have found so much value in working with Cheryl over the last couple of years. So, anyway, Cheryl Pope, welcome to the podcast.

Cheryl: Thanks, Ray. I'm thrilled to be here. Thank you so much for the invitation. I'm looking forward to our discussion.

Ray: So, normally I like to hear from our guests, but I'm going to just commandeer at the top here to sort of tell the story of how we met. So, when I started the firm, probably a year or two in, I was like, you know, I could use sort of a coach to help better manage the firm and help with our growth. And I had been looking for some time to find someone and be like, who is the person that I can have a good relationship with, that gets me, gets our business. I had been searching and really couldn't find anyone. So then AAJ, it's almost two years ago now, had what's called their BOSS Summit, which was really about not practicing law, but running the business of law. And Cheryl did this breakout session about the things that I needed to know about, like communication and how to structure an organization. And after this breakout session, where I was just kind of listening, I went up to her and I was like, I want to hire you. And she's like, yeah, okay, whatever. And I gave her my card, and I thought she would never hear from me again. And literally, like, the next day, I was like, okay, when do we start? And that's how Cheryl and I have been working together. So it's been amazing so far. So, Cheryl, is that your recollection of how we met?

Cheryl: Yeah, I mean, spot on. Yeah, it was up in Vermont. We had this great thing and this great event. And yeah, I wish that everybody would come up to me like that and say, hey, I want to hire you. But it was the start of an amazing relationship. I've so enjoyed working with you and the firm. And, you know, I can't wait to see where you go from here.

Ray: So how do you describe yourself to people who want to know what you do, or really, you know, when an owner of a law firm approaches you. Like, how do you describe what you do?

Cheryl: Yeah, I think a lot of it just boils down to I work with firms to help them figure out what they want to do, where they want to go, define it, kind of creating a common language with everybody, and then help get everybody else in the team aligned. Because you have to have that direction from the top, and then you have to ensure everybody understands: okay, are we going north, south, east, or west? And then they have to actually be committed to it. So I really help organizations achieve their goals through working together, from communication and accountability as the two main levers that they pull in order to be successful.

Ray: So your background was in HR, and you were at American Airlines. You worked for Brinker. For those who don't know Brinker, they own like a ton of restaurants. Maggiano's is like the big one, right? It sounds great that you get free food there, but when you have free Italian food for like three years every day, all of a sudden... yeah. Anyway. Chili's, Maggiano's. So you did that, but then how did you not pivot necessarily, but get into the plaintiff law world?

Cheryl: Well, first of all, it started 25 years ago when I fell in love with a plaintiff's lawyer and we got married. But, you know, I'd worked in corporate America for a long period of time, and it was back in 2012. And I was working for a private equity firm and I was making a lot of money. And the firm that I was working for was great. They were great people, good, ethical, moral people, not like the stereotypical thing you might see on TV these days. But I just wasn't loving what I was doing, and then my dad got sick. He got diagnosed with stage four lung cancer, and it's one of those things that when you have a loved one who gets that diagnosis, you don't know what the ending of the movie is going to be. You just don't know how long that movie is going to be. And it was just kind of a life-altering moment that I didn't want to be beholden to somebody else. So I was very fortunate. I quit my job and I was able to spend time with him.

Quickly realized I wasn't a full-time caregiver. So I started picking up just some projects till I could figure out my next stage in life. I got certified as an executive coach, even though I'd been doing that type of work for years in my role in HR. And then, probably about four or five months in, I kind of had this epiphany at dinner because my husband, Brian, like I said, he's a plaintiff's lawyer. I was literally getting deposed at dinner every night. And I was like, hmm, you know what? That's because he doesn't know how to kind of turn it off in terms of asking questions. He'd be like, is it true that when you went to the grocery store, you got strawberries? I was like, yes, Perry Mason, that is in fact true, right? And so I was like, hey, maybe there's an opportunity here.

And as I started exploring things with lawyers, especially plaintiff lawyers, what I realized is that so many of them go to law school, a lot of them mainly because they want to help people. But many of them don't like business, they don't like e-commerce, no finance, thumbs down. And so they went to law school. Then they get out of school. And this is what my husband did: gets out of school, goes to work for a law firm for a couple of years. They say, hey, it's great. And he's like, you know what? I think I can do this better. So he hangs out his own shingle. Well, what he didn't realize, and what many plaintiffs' lawyers especially don't realize, is they outsmart themselves when they open up their own practice because they are, in fact, a business owner. And so a lot of the skills that I got in working for the likes of American Airlines and Brinker International, they've never gotten. They've never talked about strategic planning. They've never talked about performance management or things like that. And so I was like, there's a real opportunity here to take some of the ideas and the structure without a lot of the bureaucracy, and kind of just help entrepreneurs, because that's really what law firm owners are, just operate more effectively and efficiently as a business.

Ray: So I suspect most law firms come to you not in their early stages, because, you know, as you described, like, oh, yeah, I got it, but then they see it as part of their growth, like roadblocks or problems. What are the most common issues that come to you from law firm owners, really at like the initial stage with you?

Cheryl: Communication. I don't understand why my team won't do what I want them to do, right? Or things like that, or we have conflict. It's all interpersonal dynamics for the most part. And as you sit down and talk to them, the reason why is different for every single firm. And I think it boils down to so many of them just get busy trying cases and moving the ball forward, that sometimes you get so busy being busy, you forget what it is you're really working towards. And so trying to help them provide a little bit of clarity about why are they even doing what they're doing. But then communicating with people in their team effectively and efficiently so that they're all aligned is the biggest challenge. And for some people, you know, I have had people that have called me and said, hey, I'm going out on my own, can you help? And I have a firm that just celebrated its 40th anniversary. And they called me and said, hey, you know, we want to make sure we're here another 40 years. What do we need to do? So there's not a right or wrong time to start thinking about things from more of a holistic level.

Ray: So something we first spoke about, Cheryl, and I know you work with a lot of firms on, and look, you know, I have a very sensitive bullshit detector. I'm not like a, you know, but anyway, you said, like, what are the values of your firm? And I was like, well, that's obvious. It's like X, Y, and Z. And I think you were like, well, does anyone else know that? And I was like, stop it. You know, why are you doing this to me? But I want you to talk a bit about the importance of that and the process for going through that with a team.

Cheryl: Yeah. And so it's such an interesting thing because so many times people understand what a firm does or why they do it, but the how. Like, what you do matters, right? But how you do it is just as important. And being able to create that common language matters because there's an activity that we did together, Ray, and that I do with a lot of my clients where I just have however many people are in the room, I just tell them, hey, I'm going to give you one word, I'm going to ask you to write down the very first thing that comes to mind. And my dog Carmichael could not, I don't know if y'all can hear him, but he could not be more excited about this activity. But the word is trust. And what's really interesting is you get a room of 10 people in there. Never have I had a room where all 10 people write the same thing down, right? And so you have to provide that common language. It's almost like if you have a homeowner's association, right? They kind of define for you things that you can do and can't do and stuff like that, but this is kind of the ground rules or the rules of engagement of how a team will interact with each other.

And so when you define those, it helps you do all sorts of things, like, first of all, just your day-to-day engagement, but also when you hire people. Hey, here's what we're looking for. These are the things that are really important to us. So, for example, if quality is something, or relationships are really important at a firm, then you know that. And somebody who wants maybe more of a just traditional, hey, I just want to clock in, clock out, do my job, go home, I don't want to have to talk to a lot of people, then it helps people choose not to have that kind of a job. It also allows people to have kind of expectation-setting conversations, align with people and you say, hey, these are our values, and you're responsible for living them each and every day. And when you have performance reviews, you can talk to them in terms of that.

And I think the more interesting question, at least for me, is I think back when I went to work for American Airlines. As you might imagine, there are a ton of rules and policies and procedures. And that's super important when you're dealing with a really safety-intensive industry such as that. Like, I want to know the pilot of my plane is following all the rules he needs to follow. But we had three volumes of rules and regulations and 37 rules of conduct. And the way each and every one of these was written was that if you do these things, you will be fired. Never once did we aspirationally define and say, hey, here's what it takes to be successful here. Here's what we want our culture to be, because every organization is going to have a culture. The question is, are you going to have the one you want? And so by defining the values, creating that common language for everybody, it helps people understand: okay, this is how we're expected to play nice in the sandbox with one another. And you know what? This is actually someplace I want to be.

Ray: So I think workplace culture may have a bad rap. And, you know, I joke, I think I joked, I was like, I'm not going to do a trust fall with you. And I know that's not your style, but tell me what is your sort of philosophy, and also how you get over that hurdle with folks who may be like, this is going to be some frou-frou, you know, whatever.

Cheryl: 100%. Well, first of all, the thing that I love doing most when I get a larger group of like a whole team together is like just pick on two people and say, hey, would y'all come up here? Because I think you'd be great to start us off with trust falls. Because then I see the look of terror in their eyes. I'm like, okay, that's the worst thing literally that's going to happen to you during this entire time together. But no, my style is: first of all, I don't have a list of products that when you call me up and say, hey, I think we need some help, I say, well, you should use package number C, this I think would be perfect for you. Because every firm is different, right? Every client is different, whether it's a corporate client or whether it's one of my law firm clients. So my approach is, before anything, to just sit down and talk to you, figure out what the problems are, what keeps you up at night. Because so often, when people call me and say, hey, this is kind of what's going on, I think I need X, after really sitting down and having a conversation with them, you realize that the answer is not X. It may be a little bit of X, but you got to throw some Y and Z in there as well, and kind of create a tailored solution for the firm.

Also, I'm not the right fit for every firm, right? And I think that's an important thing for consultants such as myself to be self-aware about. And I have no problem saying to people, like, hey, if you, you know, like, I've had people call me up and say, I've got this person who's a real problem. Can you come in and fix them? Well, no, that's, you know, if I had that superpower, I'd probably make a lot of money and I'd probably be living on a beach somewhere with somebody bringing me piña coladas all day. So, no, that is not something I can do. But if it's trying to be aspirational about where we're going, because I'm much more about the positive, where are we trying to go, and focusing on what we can achieve together than trying to kind of fix a bad apple. So it's much more of a two-way discovery process. Make sure we understand what problem are we actually trying to fix, because I don't want to come at you with solutions until we've agreed on what the problem is.

Ray: Something that we use here because of you, and I know you use with a lot of your clients, are DISC assessments, which are, I'm going to call them like personality tests, but not really. But I want you to talk about these and the role that they can play for an organization, in particular a law firm.

Cheryl: Yeah, it's so interesting because at the end of the day, I use the DISC product, but there's multiple things like it out there. Many people might be familiar with Myers-Briggs or the DISC or EQ-i, which measures emotional intelligence. It's all about creating a common language for everybody. And so when you have a team take the DISC assessment, you understand what everybody's natural approach toward work is in terms of communication, how they make decisions, how they react to things, what kind of feedback they need or don't need. It helps give you that common language. So instead of saying, like, oh man, Ray's a real asshole, I can't believe he said this, that, or the other thing, or he just never smiles or whatever, people can say, you know, Ray is really results oriented, right? And it gives you that common language to, number one, understand your own self. So you can think, okay, well, how I show up, okay, it's not about changing me. It's about helping me navigate myself so that I can approach how I discuss things with Ray maybe differently than with somebody else, right?

So I kind of think back to it's all about navigating yourself. Like, I don't know, Ray, if you were like this, but there might have been a time or two when I was younger where maybe I missed curfew, or I was pulling up and the light in the kitchen was on, and in my head I'm going through, like, stories: okay, this is my approach if it's Mom, this is my approach if it's Dad. And using a DISC assessment or something like that to give you that common language helps you understand not only how to work most effectively with the people that you work with every day, but also with clients. And so, to put it in law firm speak, you know, people who do traditional personal injury, for example, if you have somebody who calls up and says, hey, when am I going to get my money? But your paralegal is somebody who's much more about giving all the details. That person doesn't care what the civil justice process is. They really want to just know, when am I going to get my money? It's going to be at least six months before we know anything, I'll call you then, right? Or whatever. Conversely, if you get somebody who, your paralegal just wants to get somebody off the phone because they've got other stuff to do, and you get grandma who calls up and is like, let me tell you about Timmy's soccer game, if they're not understanding their own approach to communication, they could really cause some harm to the client relationship. Not to mention the relationships you have with the people they work with every day.

Ray: So I'm curious how DISC intersects with, I think, some stereotypes that people have about generations, whether it's boomers or millennials or Gen, I don't know them all at this point. I feel like every 10 years we label them. I'm curious if there are any trends there, or really it's kind of a hodgepodge.

Cheryl: Yeah, it's really kind of a hodgepodge. I think the bigger stereotype that people have is like, oh, all attorneys are probably this one style, and all paralegals are probably this other style. That's not the case at all. It is pretty distributive across all, there's four main styles, hence the word DISC, right? It's dominance, influence, steadiness, and conscientiousness. And generationally, the same thing, right? Things influence your style. And so what's different about using the DISC than maybe a Myers-Briggs or something is it can change and evolve as you change and evolve. You know, with age, maturity, we know that age and maturity are not the same thing, the types of jobs you have and that kind of stuff. Because my style was much, it wasn't that different, but when I was an analyst at American Airlines, it was a little different than it is now as a business owner, right? So, anyway.

Ray: Again, we're joined by Cheryl Pope, the founder of Carlton Human Capital and an organizational effectiveness consultant and executive coach. Cheryl, there are a lot of your mantras that I always go back to. And I usually want to scream into a pillow whenever I think of them sometimes because you're more right than not. One of the values you talk about is how people have an emotional bank account. And this one always comes back to me. And I think it's a good segue from talking about the DISC assessment. Tell me about that and how you teach that to folks.

Cheryl: Yeah, I mean, so I don't care how tough or cool or seasoned any of us are, or really thinks that we are. We all have an emotional bank account. And so it operates just like a traditional bank account, right? You want to make more deposits than you make withdrawals. And I think what we lose sight of a lot of the time is that every interaction we have with somebody is an opportunity, right? And every opportunity has an impact. And so whether it's just like walking down the hall, making eye contact and smiling with somebody, or just saying good morning, or asking how the weekend was, those are all small little things that go into the deposit category. Not for everybody, that goes back to like the style and everything, but the goal in a work setting especially, as well as family, is to have more deposits in the account than you have withdrawals.

And what's really interesting, a lot of the times I'll do this activity with groups, and I'll have everybody take a sticky note and write all your deposits, and then write all your withdrawals. How many of the same things show up in both categories? Because something that may be important to me may be the very thing that drives you bonkers, right? And just raising that self-awareness and realizing that we're not just by ourselves doing our own thing on this planet, there's other people around us that we're impacting, is just pretty powerful once we realize that, especially when it's an organization or a team or a firm, just recognizing what drives people nuts and what helps us kind of work more effectively together.

Ray: So it seems like common sense: hey, if we can communicate effectively, we can run a better operation. But it probably happens less than it should. Like, what are the barriers for that? Like, what is the psyche that prevents companies and leaders from going down that road? Is it ego? Is it time? What do you see?

Cheryl: Yeah, all the things. Well, first of all, common sense, as we know, is not that common. And we all bring our own experience, we all bring our own thoughts and ideas to wherever we're camped out working at the moment. And I think we just assume because somebody is in a position that they know how to do the job. For example, a lot of attorneys that I talk with, like, yeah, I'm just hiring a paralegal, she's been a paralegal for 18 years. Like, okay, well, what's the onboarding process? Like, what do you mean? I mean, she's going to show up, I'm going to give her a computer and she's going to hit the ground running. Then I take it back to the restaurant world because so many of us have worked in restaurants at some point along the way. And, you know, like, Ray, did you ever work in a restaurant growing up?

Ray: Catering hall, I was a dishwasher. They didn't let me near people.

Cheryl: So that, I totally get that. But assume, if you would, that you had been a server, right? Basic function of the job: here's a menu, what's your order, here's your food, want more water, here's your check, right? But those steps of service are much different if you are at Chili's versus like a Ruth's Chris steakhouse. And so what people, they know in their head what they want the person to do, they struggle with communicating it in a way in which it's a two-way dialogue, where I've communicated clearly to you what I expect of you, but you've played it back to me in a way in which we have that common understanding. So I think communication is the biggest piece.

I think the second piece, it's really, I've really found this interesting in my work with lawyers. And as somebody who spends a lot of time talking about how bad stereotypes and biases are, I'm going to go full-on stereotype on you. Most lawyers are the most conflict-averse people I've ever met in my life. And I was really thinking about that in preparation for this. And I think a lot of it is they are advocating on behalf of somebody else. And they are talking with their clients with a common enemy of the insurance company or whoever. When you look internally for a law firm, for example, oftentimes they're the common enemy that the staff is bonding with one another about, right? And they don't think about the importance of actually sitting down and being open and being transparent and not being so transactional with their staff, but instead having some real meaningful conversations and providing context around what they're doing, why they're doing it, how they're doing it, etc. So, communication and conflict.

Ray: You know, I think I had this idea, when I first hired you, was like, all right, we're going to do a session, we're going to do this training, and then, yeah, then we're good. Like that, that's that. And I quickly realized that's not how this works. And I think I came to that realization on my own, because, and again, I think just from prior experience, to understand the importance of having a culture that you want to lead and be a part of. How do you get law firms to see this as more than a check-the-box training, into a habit that sticks long-term?

Cheryl: Yeah, I think that's a great question. And if I had the silver bullet answer to that, I bring you back to my island where somebody's bringing me piña coladas the whole time. It's different for every firm. But I think people have to trust kind of the process of sometimes taking a step back and looking, I keep saying holistically, it's not just about the cases, right? It's about the people. It's about where you're going. It's about how you're going to get there, etc. And so really trying to get people to just take the first step. I have some clients that I've done one and done. They feel like they're great, and they just keep going. And then I have other clients that I've been with for 10, 12 years, and you just get in there, you do the work, and you help them see how successful they can be. I guess back to your previous question, a third component is accountability. Part of what I do is help hold people accountable. Not everybody wants to be held accountable. So a lot of the times, my one-and-done clients, some of those are they just don't want to put the hard work in because it's hard, right? Having conversations, being intentional, talking to people, it's exhausting because people can be super annoying, right?

Ray: So for firms you work with like 10, 12 years, how do their problems evolve over that time? Because it's never problem-less. Like, that's not how life works. What changes?

Cheryl: Yeah, I mean, so a lot of the times it's just people, right? They get bigger, they expand, they either add people, they add locations, they have different kinds of people. The world has changed, right? So this one client that I'm thinking of in particular, we just did, I guess it's been 11 years, I think, since we've been working together. And the very first session we did, sat down with the owner and three of the lawyers, and that was it. Sitting in a room, trying to figure out a strategic plan, et cetera. Now, this firm has almost 50 people, five locations. And so those growth headaches come into play. But since then, we've been through a global pandemic. We've got AI, we've got all sorts of things that are just, you know, tort reform, like political things going on in the world, I'll just leave it at that. And there's always new problems. And so I think the people who get complacent and think, I got this, that's certainly a strategy. But the people who are proactive and look at their business in what I call more of a chess approach than a checkers approach are the ones who are going to reap the rewards, because there's always going to be a new problem to solve.

Ray: For leaders who are navigating the workplace of today and tomorrow, what's your one piece of advice on building stronger engagement amongst our employees?

Cheryl: Don't forget about the importance of interpersonal connection. I think one of the things that we've learned through the pandemic, and that we can take two steps backwards with if we start to get too dependent on AI, and please, I am actually a big advocate for and a fan of AI, you just have to use it responsibly, people are people, and we are social creatures by nature. Don't forget about the importance of not just picking up the phone or texting somebody, because, you know, less than 10% of the communication that we use are the words that we use. We need to have that eye contact. We need to have that body language. And so, if you have an office, walk down the hall and talk to somebody. Don't just send them an email, right? Schedule a lunch. It's that interpersonal piece that really, I think, matters and has always mattered, whether it's back to the silent generation that my grandfather was part of or on to whatever Gen XYZ we're coming up on next.

Ray: So what would you leave as a final note for law firm owners right now, and the industry as it is today?

Cheryl: Yeah, I think you've got to make sure that you work on the business, not just in the business, and think about what you like doing, what you don't like doing. And realize that there are a lot of people out there who can help you. Myself, sure, call me, I'd love that. But that's not a plug. It's that, you know, think about what you like doing, what you don't like doing, what you're good at, what you're not good at, and then find the right people to plug in the holes around you, because you can't do it all, right? It takes a village, whether it's running a law firm, raising a family, whatever. Don't try and do it by yourself.

Ray: Cheryl Pope with Carlton Human Capital, thank you so much for joining the podcast. Really appreciate the conversation.

Cheryl: Thank you. I've enjoyed it, and thanks for the opportunity.

Thanks for listening to this episode of Raising the Bar with RebuttalPR. Don't forget to subscribe and follow to join us next time. See you then.