Chris Seeger on Building a Premier Mass Torts Practice

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Welcome to Raising the Bar with RebuttalPR, the podcast where we elevate the stories of the plaintiff's bar and dive into the key trends shaping the civil justice system today. I'm your host, Ray DeLorenzi, and in each episode, we'll bring you insightful interviews with leading attorneys, expert perspectives on current legal events, and in-depth discussions on the issues that matter most. Now let's jump in.

Going to school at that point, after having a real-life experience like carpentry, and then being asked to read 25, 30 pages at night was like, whoa, that's nothing. That's no problem. So I really threw everything into it, and I really enjoyed it in a way I wouldn't have if I had graduated high school and gone right in.

Ray: Hey everyone, and welcome back to a new episode of Raising the Bar with RebuttalPR. This is Ray DeLorenzi, your host. And today I'm honored to be joined by Chris Seeger, who is one of the most prolific mass tort and class action litigators of our time. Cases like the NFL concussion litigation, opioids, Vioxx, the 3M earplug litigation — Chris has led, litigated, and resolved billions, tens of billions of dollars in resolutions for people in need. Chris, thank you so much for joining us today.

Chris: Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.

Ray: So, with these episodes, I like to play a little armchair psychologist, and I like to find out what makes people tick. So I guess buckle your seatbelt for the next 30 minutes or so. Take me back to the early days of Chris Seeger. Tell me about growing up. I know that after going through high school, you were blue collar. But I want to know more, and I think our listeners want to know more, about how you started out, as a kid, essentially.

Chris: Wow, that's a really good question. Don't get asked that one much. So, I grew up in a big family. My stepfather was a union carpenter, raised six kids. But it was, I would say, a tough neighborhood. It's funny because, looking back — I grew up in a town, I grew up in Bay Shore. It depends on what part of Bay Shore you grew up in. If you drive through Bay Shore and you go to the ferries, it looks like a beautiful town, with big houses that are 200 years old. And then there's the other side of the tracks. And I grew up on the other side of the tracks.

So I can't say that I was always an ambitious youth. I had my ways of getting attention. I played sports. I was a little bit of a clown. I liked to try to make people laugh. But I think what really makes me tick, if you're really playing therapist today, would be the insecurity I felt as a young kid about where I was in life, where I was relative to the kids on the other side of the tracks who drove nice cars and lived in nice houses. I was always on the outside, kind of looking in at that. And it provided, I would say, a good amount of inspiration.

The other thing I would say as a kid — I didn't grow up with a real close relationship with my stepfather. My biological dad, I didn't have a relationship with at all, really, until I got older, like in my 30s, when I met him. And even then, it wasn't a great relationship. But I had mentors. I had really great mentors. And I don't know if I do enough mentoring in my own life, but I was definitely one of those lucky kids. When I was graduating high school, I had skills as a carpenter. I thought that was my objective, to be a carpenter. I wasn't even thinking about being a lawyer. I wasn't even thinking about college or law school. And I ran into a guy from Bay Shore who owned a bunch of properties and would give me jobs. I'd do handyman jobs for him, fixing up his properties. But he was somebody I really looked up to. He was a World War II veteran, a Navy captain, and he really instilled in me a good work ethic, said real positive things, gave me real positive feedback. So I've been lucky in that way.

Ray: You know, I think for someone who's a high-profile litigator at the top of their game, you took an unconventional path to get there. You alluded to this a few moments ago, but you graduate high school and law school isn't on your radar, let alone college. Tell me about getting into carpentry and working with your hands and doing pretty tough work.

Chris: Yeah, it has a lot to do with my neighborhood. There were a few jobs you went into. It was construction, became a cop, a fireman — those kinds of jobs. Great jobs, really respectful jobs. But it just wasn't even on my radar. I kept hearing a lot, frankly, in high school, "College isn't for everybody, kid. Maybe you should stick with carpentry, you're learning carpentry." I heard that a lot. And I was pretty athletic as a kid and I played a bunch of sports — football, basketball — but kind of settled in around 16 years old with boxing. I was boxing at the time.

So as a 16-year-old — going back to 16-year-old Chris — I actually thought that maybe one day I could be a carpenter, but maybe a professional boxer, make some money as a boxer. To be honest with you, when I hit like 19, 20, I stopped thinking about that, for a lot of reasons. One is, there was no way I had the talent to make any real money in boxing. Number two, although I enjoyed it — I did like the attention I got from it, being a pretty insecure kid. If I won a boxing match, I got a lot of attention back at my school. It was a nice way to meet girls when I was young.

And I will say this — I know I'm jumping around — but boxing really helped me with my work ethic, because I had a really good coach. His name was Tony Fortunato, still around. We try to keep in touch with each other, even as recently as now. He made you work hard, and he didn't like people who kind of half-assed it. So I learned that hard work will pay off, that there's an upside to working hard. I really started to develop that mentality from boxing. And it gave me a level of confidence — and I don't mean bullying-type confidence, just a confidence in myself, a sense of accomplishment that I didn't really have growing up.

Ray: And what was your boxing record?

Chris: Yeah, I did well, but I didn't box any world tournaments. In those days, the tournaments were called smokers. We would box other clubs. I won 14 fights and I lost three, and that's not too bad. But I was a very active boxer. I learned early in amateur boxing that throwing a lot of punches will win a fight, even if you're not connecting — just being really active. And I wasn't the bravest person in the world. Everybody who does these combat sports tries to act like they're the bravest human beings. The reality is — and by the way, I think a guy like Mike Tyson makes it easy for people to admit that they're afraid, because Tyson would say things like, "I was afraid before I got to the ring, and fear is what drove you." But before my first amateur boxing match, my friends had to pull me out of my house. I was thinking about not even going. And it wasn't so much getting beat up in front of my friends. It was the rejection I knew I'd feel if I lost in front of them. But I won the first one and overcame it.

Ray: So you're a carpenter, and then at what point does it trigger for you — "Hey, I should go to college now, I'm ready for it"? And at the same time, did you decide, "I want to go to law school too," or was it incremental?

Chris: That's a really good question. For some reason, when I got out of high school, I didn't have a lot of interest in education. But when I got out of high school — and it could have been that chip on my shoulder, that I was the dirty guy in this big mansion working on their property, and those looks that I perceived I got — but I was an avid reader. I used to read a lot, loved reading books. One of the first books that made a major impression on me as a young person was a book by James Michener called The Source. I don't know if anybody's read that, but it's about an archaeological dig done in Israel. And with every layer they dig into the ground, they find an artifact, and he tells a story about the artifact and the civilization that was there.

So I was always an avid reader, but I didn't have confidence in myself as a student. It wasn't until a few years after high school, like four years working as a carpenter — I was living in the city, and I used to walk by Hunter College all the time. And I said, "You know, I'm reading all this stuff, and I'm probably not a great student, but maybe I'll take a couple of courses and see how it goes." And that's kind of what happened. I think it was 1983. I enrolled to take four courses. I got A's in all of them, which I couldn't believe. And that kind of launched my educational career.

Now, what I attribute that success to is the fact that carpentry is hard work. In the wintertime, it's freezing; in the summertime, it's hot; you're lifting heavy stuff. As a young person, you're doing a lot of the heavy lifting for the older guys, so you're doing really manual labor. So going to school at that point, after having a real-life experience like carpentry, and then being asked to read 25, 30 pages at night was like, whoa, that's nothing. No problem. So I really threw everything into it, and I enjoyed it in a way I wouldn't have if I had graduated high school and gone right in.

Ray: Did you go to college knowing that you were going to be a lawyer, or were you just going to feel this out and see where it takes you?

Chris: No, it was kind of aspirational. I have an older brother who's a really good student, and he was going to school at the time on the West Coast, and he was talking about going to law school. And maybe that was the first time I said to myself, "Hmm, I wonder if I could do that." And even after that first semester doing pretty well, I was still dismissing it, like, "I'm not lawyer material." But as I continued to work hard in college and continued to do really well, continued to get A's — I had a very good GPA — I was like, "I'll give it a shot." So again, developed through the hard work, it really helped me develop the confidence to go to the next step.

Ray: So you go right from undergrad to law school. Is that right?

Chris: From undergrad to law school. Yes.

Ray: So you're coming out of law school, and then it's like, okay, time to get a job. And I know you went to the defense bar. What was the thinking of why go do that? The money?

Chris: I mean, my first job out of law school — I got really good grades in law school. I was recruited to a big firm, Shearman & Sterling. At the time, they were paying $89,000 a year to start. And that was so far beyond my expectations of what I would ever make in my life that I couldn't turn it down. I had no clue that I would wind up in litigation. I had no clue I'd be a plaintiff's lawyer. Frankly, because of my carpentry, I thought there was a chance I might wind up being a real estate lawyer or a transactional lawyer. I thought those two things had a connection, and they didn't.

Ray: So you're at Shearman & Sterling. Do you remember what your first assignment was, what they put you on?

Chris: I believe it was — Shearman & Sterling in those days did a lot of work for Citibank. So a lot of the work, whether you were in the real estate department or something else, was Citibank work, which usually meant either representing them on the extension of loans, big loans, or modifying those loans. And I think the very first thing I worked on was a loan modification. Some partner walked in like 6:00 at night, dumped a big stack of things on my desk, and said, "I want these on my desk 9:00 in the morning." So I stayed up all night working, trying to figure out how to do stuff. That was pretty much it. And honestly, I really loved some of the people I worked with. I met some really talented, intelligent people. I just didn't love the work I was getting as a young lawyer. And I was four or five years older than the average law school grad, because I took that time off for boxing and carpentry.

Ray: So what was the dynamic in that firm? You have some people who are five years younger than you. Did they look down on you, or was it pretty collegial? What was that atmosphere like?

Chris: Yeah, well, I got a lot of being looked down upon, because I went to an average law school. I went to Cardozo. These guys were coming from Harvard, Yale, Michigan, Stanford, MIT. I remember folks from all these places. And I do think they thought of me sort of like this clam digger from Long Island a little bit. Not everybody, obviously, because not everybody came from privilege — there were a lot of folks who worked their way up. But it wasn't something that I fit in with, for a lot of reasons.

I mean, here's a true story. I remember a partner giving me an assignment and saying, "I want this by whenever." I drop it off on the guy's desk, and I don't hear back for several hours. So I go and leave a handwritten message — those days were handwritten. I put it on his desk. Nothing. A day goes by. Next day, I go and leave another handwritten message: "Hey, so-and-so, do you need me? You wanted these documents. Do I need to do anything on them?" That guy comes into my office that night, takes both messages, crumbles them up, throws them on my desk, looks at me, and says, "Don't ever leave me two messages." And my response — I have that street mentality — my response was, "If you ever come into my office and do what you just did to me, nobody here will be able to help you. I'm going to be on you." And believe it or not, I never had a problem with that guy again. It was late at night, nobody was around. So he knew he was in trouble if I jumped him. He looked at me weird in the hallway and maybe stayed away from me, but he never mouthed off to me again. That was when I was like, okay — I'm a pretty nice guy, I don't really start trouble, but the street guy can still come out. That's what I was trying to show him in that moment: don't go too far.

Ray: Now — I'm going to jump around a bit — but now, running a law firm, do you ever see someone treat someone else like that, and does it make your head pop off in a way?

Chris: I have fired people in my firm. I fired — I'm not going to name names, obviously, because he's doing well today — but I fired a partner, a productive partner, because he treated people badly like that, mostly paralegals. But I don't care. I don't like it. I don't like bullying. If you're a plaintiff's lawyer and you're a bully, or you stand for bullying, there's something inconsistent in your philosophical outlook on life. But unfortunately, a lot of lawyers, for whatever reason — either it's a power trip, or a lot of them are just that way — they are full of themselves, which I try not to let happen to myself. And maybe it does. Maybe somebody has that opinion of me. I don't know. I don't think I let that happen. But I believe you treat everybody in the office the same. I don't care what their job is. I don't care if they're pushing a broom — treat everybody respectfully. In fact, the way I raise my kids is: the people you see working really hard, pushing a broom, working on the windows, doing stuff, treat them more respectfully than you treat somebody with a suit and tie.

Ray: So you're at Shearman & Sterling, working on contracts for Citibank. When does it click — "This ain't for me," and "I'm just going to start a firm"? How does that compute?

Chris: It didn't take long. Really, I lasted there like two years and I had to get out. It was just terrible. And I hated the practice of law. Again, nothing against the people — nice people — but I hated the practice of law. So I found out that the partner at Shearman who recruited me out of law school was leaving Shearman & Sterling to start a firm. And he recruited me into the new firm he was going into. He was joining up with a couple of partners, I think from Moses & Singer, which was a firm that was falling apart at the time. And they were doing litigation. And that's where I got introduced to litigation. But I still didn't love it. And I only stayed there about a year and a half.

And let me tell you what my average day was like back then. I would work all day doing this firm's work — and they also represented big corporate interests and banks, so again, I wasn't connecting with my purpose, or what I was doing for these folks. But at night, I was managing and representing boxers. I was still very much involved in boxing. I was managing a fighter myself, a guy named Kirk Johnson, who had two shots at the heavyweight title. And I was a lawyer for James Toney. I was handling some of his work while he was a champion boxer, who I met at a poker game. They found out I used to box and I was a lawyer, and he started sending me things to look at. So I had these relationships that developed.

When I was really disenchanted with the practice of law at this new firm, I was thinking about getting out of law altogether and just managing and representing boxers, because I understood the business of boxing from being around it and doing contracts. I had dealt with people like Don King, who I knew very well. Really funny story — I won a big trial. You know, Mass Torts Made Perfect, which Papantonio started, probably started in the early 2000s. I had just won a big trial against Pfizer involving a drug called Rezulin. So I got what I think was their very first Clarence Darrow Award. And I was invited to go to Vegas. Do you know who presented me that award? Don King. Don King was the keynote speaker, and he handed me the plaque. I have it over here in my office.

So it's just funny how life is connected. And you'd be shocked how many lawyers — I met Mike Papantonio's partner, Fred Levin, through boxing. Fred Levin represented Roy Jones; I was representing James Toney. And though we didn't know each other from the practice of law, we had met and talked about trying to get those two in the ring. So it was really exciting. But to fast-forward a little bit, I left that firm, started my own thing in 1993, and I was doing everything. I did wills, I did real estate closings, I did anything that came through the door. And a personal injury case came through the door, and I handled it, and I fell in love with it. Really, in that moment, I knew almost from the time this client signed my retainer that this is what I wanted to do. We tried her case, got her successful results. I remember handing her that check — that was a life-changing, like $2 million check to her and her family. And I was like, "This is it. This is what I want to do." And from that day, I've been running to work. I'm 64 now, years later, and I'm still doing it and still enjoying it.

Ray: So tell me how you broke into doing mass torts, which can be — or was back then — sort of a clubby atmosphere, hard to get into. How did you get yourself into that room? And what was the first one you really got your arms around? I recall Rezulin or Vioxx — what was the first one?

Chris: It was actually either Propulsid or Rezulin. Vioxx was later. And I do tell this story often when I go to law schools and talk to people, and they ask me this question, like, "So how do I get involved?" And my answer, I don't think, is what most people think I would say — which is, "Oh, go in a room and just wait around for somebody to give you an opportunity because you're a young person." Uh-uh. My advice is: do it exactly the way that I did it, and Dave Buchanan and I did here at our firm. The very first case that I tried to get a leadership position in, I think, was Rezulin. And I heard about a meeting — I didn't even know how to get cases. I think the way we got cases, I put an ad in the paper. And that was kind of how people did it: "There was a side effect associated with this drug. If you're interested in talking about it, give us a call," kind of thing. And I had a few, not a lot.

And I heard about this organizational meeting, because the Rezulin cases were sent to the Southern District of New York, and I was a New York lawyer. So I heard about what was going on. I tried to get in the room and was literally thrown out. Literally thrown out. "Why are you here? Who are you? Who do you know? How'd you get in the room? Go wait outside. We'll let you know when the case is organized." And by the way, the person who basically told me that was Arnold Levin, who unfortunately just passed away, but who wound up becoming a very good friend of mine, obviously. And so, from being kicked out of the room and not having a role at all, I said, "All right, you know what, you guys do your thing here in federal court. I'm going to take my few cases and go to state court." They were trying cases — these guys were trying Rezulin cases and Propulsid cases at the time, those two litigations were going on, and they were losing. And I took my case across the street into state court and won, and got a multimillion-dollar verdict. And then all of a sudden, I was getting phone calls like, "Hey, would you like to join us? We'll get you a PSC seat." And that's kind of it.

And that's why, when I talk to law students, I say you've got to go prove yourself. Do something, write a great brief, get a trial verdict — but you've got to show people you have value. And then from there, we started getting invitations to be involved in other cases, not leadership, but on the committee. And we were becoming one of those firms where every litigation goes from like 20 firms down to like five firms that are really doing the heavy lifting. We were one of those five firms that were always in the room — I was being invited, or Dave. And then we got our first big opportunity with Vioxx.

And just to tell that story really quickly — with Vioxx, there were so many firsts. People forget this now, because it's now over 20 years ago. The first "first" was that it was a currently marketed drug. Most of the time, the plaintiff's bar was waiting for a drug to be recalled or voluntarily withdrawn from the market because of a side effect. Vioxx was actively marketed, and it was a blockbuster — it was making them billions of dollars. And two years before it was pulled off the market, we were all over that. We were looking at studies, we were hiring experts, we were hearing about problems with it, and the problems made sense the more I learned about the science. So when the drug was pulled from the market, we had cases already being filed and litigated in state courts. But that was my first big opportunity, where I was appointed to be a co-lead in an MDL. I was appointed by Judge Fallon in the Eastern District of Louisiana. And from there, that's what really launched my career as a leader of mass torts.

Ray: Something I think is a little unique about you compared to some other mass torts lawyers is that you've tried cases to verdict. When you're looking at a new case, something that isn't on anyone's radar, how does that experience of actually taking a case to a verdict inform how you strategize a case, or decide to even take it on in the first place?

Chris: It has a big influence. And let's be honest, a lot of plaintiffs' firms that come into the space today don't have that trial experience. In fact, let's be really honest, you could slap up a website and get cases and say you represent them, and then you wait for guys like me to go litigate them and settle them. You put the case in the settlement and make a fee. With us, I think the fact that we have so much trial experience — and not just personal injury or mass tort cases, we've been involved in class action trials too — so you have to ask yourself real questions like, "How well would this plaintiff population do with a jury?"

And I could tell you more about how that plays out. But even in a case like Vioxx, where most of the people who took it were older and were suffering heart attacks — heart attacks are pretty common in the general population once you get past 65. So how are you going to convince a jury to tease out Vioxx as a causative factor when you've got all these other things going on, like the aging process? Trial experience helps you look ahead and see that. The other thing I notice — if I were to criticize the way some cases have been led — is you've got to really theme out your case. You've got to think about the way you're going to present it to a jury. Doing that helps you get real very early about a case. You've got to have a strategic outlook for the case. What injuries are involved? Is there really support for certain injuries? Should you focus it on a narrower part of the case, because the support is there — scientific support, expert support, the documents support it? There's just no replacing that level of experience.

And one last example: every plaintiff's lawyer who goes through documents and looks at hot documents sees things and thinks that the document they just saw is the hottest document in the case — "I'm going to win the trial based on that." And then you go do a focus group or a trial, and you realize nobody gives a damn about that document. I had that experience in Vioxx. We had a document we called "Dodgeball," which was a game they played to teach sales reps to dodge doctors' questions. I thought that was the hottest document in the world. Juries didn't think much of it. They were like, "Man, they're training salespeople. Salespeople lie." So yeah, that experience is incredibly valuable.

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Ray: So for those just tuning in now, we're here with Chris Seeger, again, one of the leading mass tort and class action attorneys in the nation. I would be remiss not to bring up and talk about the NFL concussion case. And I think this is a prime example of a case where, early on, people were like, "This case is on a road to nowhere." And today it's paid out $1.3 billion and counting. So how do you, when you see a case like that, assess the risk involved, and also tune out the noise from the outside when all these people are saying this is a terrible idea?

Chris: Wow, you just hit on something really big in your last question — about tuning out the noise from the outside, because you have to really trust your own gut and your instincts. When the folks on the outside, from the cheap seats, are shouting — and like in a boxing match, you get the folks in the cheap seats calling you a bum, or "do this and do that," people who never had a fight in their lives, saying this stuff. So yeah, you've got to learn to do that. But look, I will tell you: when the case first came to me, I was a little skeptical about it, because I'd grown up in boxing gyms and I know the effects of brain trauma from boxing. It didn't shock me that really big athletic men running into each other with their heads would have these issues.

But, and you know this as well as anybody, as I dug into the case and learned more about the conduct of the NFL, and I learned about this mild traumatic brain injury committee they created — with an arthritis doctor leading it — and the fraud that was going on in the league... That committee was all about fraud. Everything that came out of that committee was fraudulent, misrepresented the science. And that was what they were communicating to players and their families. Then I realized, "Wow, it's a fraud case." It's a personal injury case, it's got all those elements, but it's really a fraud case. And that's when we really dug in.

Ray: So when you're litigating a case like that, when do you switch from the war hat to the State Department hat? And how does that work in a firm like yours, which can litigate cases, but also — now, in this part of your career — you're known more for resolving cases and landing the plane? When do you pivot? Are you the one pivoting, or is it someone else who's going to handle the war and you're going to handle the peace? How does that all shake out?

Chris: I have to be honest with you, that has always been my personality. My attitude in life is: be peaceful, but always ready to make war if I have to — if I'm on the street or something, every now and then the street kid has to come out, prepared to do that. Well, my approach to litigating is the same way. I can make war and peace at the same time. In a boxing match, I never had any real hard feelings against my opponent. And as you know, in my 40s, I took up jiu-jitsu — I have a black belt in jiu-jitsu. When we train, we go at each other 100%. But if somebody taps, the war's over, they've quit. I have no problem transitioning from war to peace, and doing both at the same time.

And I'll give you an example. I'm in a really big case right now where the defendant has indicated they're interested in settling, and then asked me, "Would you be okay with a stand-down?" And my response was no. We've got to continue on the litigation track until we know we've got a settlement in place. Then we can talk about a stand-down, or peace. So that's always been my mentality, because I do really believe that you get peace through strength. I'm not trying to make it sound like this is some kind of geopolitical issue, but I do believe in that. Even if you're not flexing your strength, you have to at least have the reputation of being able to inflict some harm and some damage. And litigation is exactly that. I do believe defendants know that our firm will go the distance, no problem, if that's where they want it to go. And if we do go the distance, our win-loss record is excellent. We have far more wins than losses. And even in cases where we got a loss or two, we've always come back with a win. So it's not hard to find that information out.

That really helps, as opposed to — and this is a criticism I have, and I'll be candid, of some folks in the class action bar — they bring a case, and really all they're litigating over is getting a class certified. I think, yes, class certification is important, but they should be thinking, "You're ready to go to trial." The defendant should be thinking, "You're going to get your class certified and go to trial." Then you'll get maximum value for your clients.

Ray: I want to pivot a little bit. There was a recent interview that two of your colleagues, Jen Scullion and Parvin Aminolroaya, did. And they talked about how you and Steve Weiss and Dave Buchanan really mentor younger people at the firm. And I'm curious as to your philosophy about that, and how you've been able — not just them, but other people at the firm — to elevate their roles and get their own leadership appointments. What do you look for in folks to make that happen?

Chris: Well, a few things. One is, I mentioned earlier that I was lucky enough to be mentored by older, smarter, more experienced people. I do try to do that in my firm with younger lawyers, particularly younger partners, because these are people I've already said, "I want you to be part of the Seeger Weiss family. We're going to make you a partner." So it's in my interest to help them be everything they want to be. And that'll be really good and productive for the firm.

I also have to be honest that many of the people — like Jen Scullion, who you mentioned, Parvin Aminolroaya, Shauna Itri — these are incredibly talented lawyers who deserve an opportunity to lead. I know that because I see them litigate cases. I see the way they strategize. I see the way they think about problems holistically. And I wouldn't push even a partner of mine just because they're a partner, unless I believe they were going to do a really good job, because in many instances, I'm vouching for them in a sense. And I want my word to mean something to the court system. So it's very easy for me to get behind that. And I'll say something else, not intending to be controversial: I'm not focused at all in my office on who's a man or a woman, what their ethnic background is. I don't care. I like talented people. Those three happen to be some of the most talented lawyers we have in the office. So pushing them is a good thing to do for the case, and the profession, and for them. And they've earned it. No gifts.

Ray: So you've been very generous with your time. I want to end on this: the firm is just celebrating its 25th anniversary. I know you're not a nostalgic kind of person, but first, do you take a step back at all and think, "Wow, look what we've accomplished here"? And second, hopefully you have quite a few years left in you — what do you want to accomplish still?

Chris: You know, I don't think I do that enough — take a step back. And I think it's because I'm still in the fight, so I'm looking at the next thing. I'm always looking at the next thing. I'm 64 years old, but I feel like I did when I was 40 or 30. And I try to keep myself fit, plan on being around for a long time. But I have begun to think about the future of the firm and institutionalizing the brand, so it's not Chris Seeger, it's Seeger Weiss. And I think the firm has been really successful in doing that over the last 10 years.

So I am interested in that. But one day I'll slow down a little bit, and maybe I will allow myself to take a little bit of a victory lap — and not to be too immodest here on a note where I'm bragging — but I don't know any other plaintiff's firm in the country that has done what we've done. That's just my view. We have tremendous breadth. We handle antitrust cases and we handle personal injury cases, and sometimes those personal injury cases become class action personal injuries. Not many firms have been able to pull off that kind of creativity — in the NFL, and even before the NFL, after Amchem, when everybody said class actions of personal injuries are done, we did one a few years after that involving a product called phenylpropanolamine. It doesn't get a lot of publicity, but we settled a lot of cases for very high, multimillion-dollar-per-case values in a class action. So one day I'll think about the victory lap, and I'll sit back and enjoy it. Right now, I'm still in the fight, but yeah — I'm starting to appreciate it a little bit more.

Ray: Well, in a few years, when you start appreciating it, we'll have you back on the podcast and we'll do a retrospective. But Chris, thank you so much for the time. Really appreciate it.

Chris: Thank you. Thank you very much.

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