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Welcome to Raising the Bar with RebuttalPR, the podcast where we elevate the stories of the plaintiff's bar and dive into the key trends shaping the civil justice system today. I'm your host, Ray DeLorenzi, and in each episode, we'll bring you insightful interviews with leading attorneys, expert perspectives on current legal events, and in-depth discussions on the issues that matter most. Now, let's jump in.
It's not giving away the store because we will only be successful if we all work together in these cases to build a better future for our kids and to ensure that there are some limitations and restrictions on the use of data.
Ray: Hey, everyone. Welcome to a new episode of Raising the Bar with RebuttalPR. I'm your host, Ray DeLorenzi, and today I'm honored to be joined by Jean Martin of Aylstock, Witkin, Kreis & Overholtz in Pensacola, Florida. Jean has been a complex litigator for more than 25 years at this point. While she just joined AWKO in January of this year, she has accomplished a heck of a lot in her career before that, and I'm sure will be telling us what's in store for her in her new role leading the firm's consumer class action practice. Jean, thanks so much for joining the podcast today.
Jean: Thanks for having me here. Great to be here.
Ray: So, Jean, I'm always interested in the people who sort of, you know, when they're not a lawyer and sort of how they came to be. Why don't you just like take it from the beginning, you know, where you grew up and what led you to become a lawyer in the first place?
Jean: Well, I grew up in Salisbury, North Carolina, just north of Charlotte, home of Liddy Dole and Food Lion, if anyone knows that grocery store, and Cheerwine soft drink, if anyone knows that. Of about 26,000 people. I have no idea really how I became a lawyer. I had this conversation with my husband the other night. It was just something that was always in the back of my mind when I was growing up.
My father was an estate auctioneer, but also was a bail bondsman. And there were times that my mother would take us to the courthouse to see him because he spent a lot of time in the courthouse. And I remember kids that would ride home with us, we would go home and tell their parents, oh, the Suttons took us to the courthouse. And, you know, then we had to explain why we were at the courthouse.
But, you know, I went to undergrad and 15 days after undergrad, I went into business school and then worked for a while in the business world, taking a few years off before I went back to law school. And an impetus for me going back to law school was that in the business world, I was working for a candy manufacturer. I love to tell people that I played Willy Wonka in a former lifetime. I used to do tours of the manufacturing facilities. I did tours with school groups, and I loved playing Willy Wonka.
But we were doing licensings of products. We made like gummy bear type products, and we did licensing of like Power Rangers, X-Men, things like that. And I just was doing a lot of work with lawyers and getting very frustrated that the lawyers kept telling me what I couldn't do. And I kept saying to them, quit telling me what I can't do and help me figure out what I can do. And that was some of the reason for me going to law school was that I just wanted to figure out a better way to do this. So that's kind of a long answer, but it was a long way to get to law school.
Ray: So you are, as a child, going to court. And your father is a bail bondsman. And this is not to cast aspersions on that profession, but the people who go see a bail bondsman, it's typically not the sunniest moment in their life. What did that experience... when you went to law school, did you have any reflections on that timing of your life being like, this is what the law is and like there's power here, or is it depressing? I mean, did it have any connection?
Jean: Thankfully, my father kept us away, or I should say my mother kept us away from that aspect. What we, my brother and I, were subject to was just going to the courthouse. My father, it was a small town, a small community. So of course, my father knew all of the judges. And there's a story that when I was born, I think there were nine women connected to the courthouse, either their husbands were judges or lawyers or so forth. There were nine pregnancies in the month of May that I was born. And so it was this running joke I was told later that basically every day one of the judges was announcing a birth from in the courtroom, from the bench. So my birth was announced from the bench in the local courthouse. So maybe that foreshadowed me one day spending time. But...
I just remember, you know, just being in the courtroom, having to sit very still, which was hard for me as a child, being very quiet and just listening to the proceedings of all kinds. And I think that that formed a comfort level of some sort. I mean, I thought that was normal, right? You know, that you would go and do that. So perhaps that provided some comfort level for me that it wasn't a scary process when I eventually went to court on my own.
Ray: So I'm going to jump around here a little bit. But you go to Wake Forest for law school. Did you have a sense of what type of law you wanted to practice when you went to law school?
Jean: Absolutely. And it was not litigation. I wanted to do corporate commercial work. I set my sights on a firm in Winston-Salem, where I live now, that had a niche for working with small to medium-sized companies, family-owned businesses. And I was fortunate enough to get a job there and worked with them. And it was great because we were doing commercial real estate and contracts, transactions, and we were working with the people who had everything at stake. So you knew that the person that was sitting across from you, if this deal fell through, you know, this was a bet the company deal, or this was going to, you know, impact whether or not their family business continued. And that was great work. So I had no expectations, no desire to go into litigation. In fact, I did not take any, I was on the moot court team, but I did not do like the trial bar competitions, did not take the pre-trial courses because I had no desire to be in the courtroom. So I love telling students these days: I'm like, don't think that what you're going to do is where you're going to end up because you never know where you're going to end up.
Ray: So tell me about the process and when the switch flips.
Jean: So, I started because of my business background early in my career. I was given the opportunity to go to work for an asbestos litigation firm as a managing attorney. I did everything from HR, you know, property management, everything, the business aspect of running the law firm. And I realized after doing that a while, even though I love the business aspect, I missed the practice of law. And we were afforded an opportunity to come into some cases involving children, involving injury to children, and that just sparked an interest to me, and I said I would like to lead this litigation because it was a mass torts type situation again that involved injury to children, and in the course of handling that litigation, I discovered a pattern. These were children that had neurodevelopmental issues. I discovered a pattern that there was a product given to many of the mothers while the child was in utero, and developed litigation from that. And the rest is really history. I mean, I think that that litigation brought out the geek in me, you know, trying to unravel and discover what was at issue here. And, you know, I was just maybe like four years, four or five years into my practice. And I'm like Don Quixote going after, you know, Fortune 500 pharmaceutical companies, having really no clue really what I was doing, except I thought I was on a righteous crusade.
Ray: You know, you mentioned earlier when you were doing the business litigation, how you were sitting across from, let's say, a family that had a business and, you know, their whole livelihood was dependent upon you. And then you're sitting across from families, again, that may have suffered the most catastrophic thing, you know, that could happen or things you can't even imagine. What was the client relation aspect? What was that transition for you when it came, you know, from an economic standpoint, more so at a business to more interpersonal component dealing with an individual?
Jean: I greatly appreciate that I had that opportunity to work with the business clients who had everything at stake. And then, you know, early in my career, when I did start doing litigation, I handled a lot of high-end personal injury cases, brain injury cases, and so forth. And that human element just is so important. And, you know, people now, lawyers that come in, you know, I do class actions now. And we rarely have a lot of human contact. You have contact with the class representative, but not with many of the class members. And it's so important to remember that at the end of the day, it's an individual who has something at stake. It's an individual who has suffered some type of injury, and that's why they are coming. And I'm just so grateful that I had that aspect of being one-on-one with clients because I do think that it's really shaped me and just the focus and the bringing an aspect of just remembering why it is that we are fighting for these cases, you know, that there's a human element there, and that's just so important because not everybody has that perspective.
Ray: So, you had all this economics background from your undergrad and graduate days, and you went to law school. How has that informed your practice of law? Or did you purposefully just like shed it and say, I don't want to think about math again? Because usually lawyers and math are not... it's not something you usually see together.
Jean: I know. I'm always like the one. I'm like, I'm the one lawyer in the room who can do math. It actually has benefited me in two ways. The first is now in the class actions in dealing with damages modeling. I can actually understand the experts. I did a lot of economic forecasting as part of my undergraduate degree. Always wondered how I would put that to use because I even had employers at the time when I was graduating say, what are we supposed to do with someone with that degree? And I'm like, I don't know. I was hoping you would tell me. So I can actually, I have actually put that to use. And it's fun to sometimes be in a deposition with an opposing expert and reel off some things. And they look at me strangely like, oh, we're not used to having an attorney who actually understands these concepts and these words. And I'm like, yes, I do have some understanding of what that means. So that's helped me tremendously. Where the business and the economics simply has truly helped me is just understanding that the practice of law is a business. You know, I did have my own firm, I was partners in a small firm, so that is very important I believe to understand that unfortunately, we can't take on every case. You have to remember that this is a business, and even though it's a righteous cause, at the end of the day, we have to keep the lights on. So that has formed my practice in that way.
Ray: What makes lawyers such bad business people historically? Is it, and let's just take the plaintiff side, but I don't think it's limited there. Is it taking on, you know, as they say, taking on causes, not cases. Is it just not keeping an eye on the financials, not understanding math? I mean, is it a soup? Like, what is the reason for that as someone who's running their own firm?
Jean: I think it's a D, all of the above. I think a lot of it is the cause. You know, you realize that this is such a righteous cause and you want to do well, and you want to fight for the little guy. And sometimes you just get in it and throw caution to the wind. And that's not necessarily the best way to be. So I think on both sides of that, you just get so passionate. It's a personal passion. And I've seen lawyers, you know, they just, they're so passionate about things and they don't want to say no. And unfortunately, we sometimes just have to say no.
Ray: Tell me about a case, you know, talk about being passionate about it that you'll look back at some point when your career has sort of wound down and be like, this is the case that I want to be known for.
Jean: Hmm. I'm not sure that case has happened yet. The cases involving the kids that, you know, was my first foray into litigation, that one unfortunately ended up with a negative Daubert ruling that was issued two nights before we were supposed to start trial. That one sticks with me. Probably proper to say it haunts me. Again, looking back would do things so differently, but I'm so grateful for the experience. It taught me a lot. I'm still in communication with some of the families. They've sent me pictures when the kids have graduated and had different milestones. And so that's very heartwarming that 20 years later they still appreciate what we tried to do for them, even though we weren't successful. But otherwise...
Ray: Let me talk about that case for just one sec. Just because you mentioned how you had this asbestos, you know, docket, and then you got into... and you know, you're very early in your plaintiff career, you get blown out on Daubert. But you were like, I'm not turning back. Like, this is my career now.
Jean: Yes, I mean, I, you know, in that case, I will say that I had a theory, a theory of the way that we should pursue the case, but being a young associate, I was overruled, and when the Daubert decision came out, I realized that had we stuck with my theory and pursued my theory, I think we would have been successful. But those were not the cards we were dealt. So I was undeterred. It lit a fire in me that I knew that this is what I wanted to do.
Ray: You also mentioned earlier being a litigator was not something you wanted to do. And if you're a plaintiff lawyer, and I think, you know, and you want to be a good plaintiff lawyer, you need to be in court. And, you know, you said as a kid, you knew what being in court was like, although I understand it was a small town. Did you have a fear of being up at the dais, or did you always just see yourself as a more behind the scenes person? Like, what led you to believe in yourself that, okay, I'm a litigator now?
Jean: There's always a fear going in front of a judge the first couple of times, you know, arguing new motions for the first time. You know, you get a motion to dismiss the first time or a motion for class certification the first time, your first appellate argument. There's always, you know, a bit of discomfort, a bit of fear. I think that my experience as a child running around the courthouse and knowing a lot of the judges, I just saw them as regular everyday people. I knew they wore black robes, and I knew that when they were on the bench, they were someone of importance. But I saw the human element aspect. And I think that that helped provide some comfort that, you know, it's all about knowing your case and presenting your case. And as long as you do the best job you can possibly do, that's all that matters. So there's nothing to, you know, be so fearful about.
Ray: We mentioned in the intro that in January this year you joined AWKO. And look, I always know moving to a different firm or transition, you know, can be tricky and complicated. I'm not looking for necessarily the reasons behind it, but what I am interested in, you've had an extremely successful career over more than two decades. Why at this point were you like, you know, I want to try something new?
Jean: I was presented an opportunity to start a class action practice for AWKO. I had known about the firm and their history and their great work for a long time. And so that was exciting to have something to build as my own. I, you know, was a little bit tired of being behind the scenes and wanted to be on the forefront. I've said for a number of years that I thought I could build a better widget. And this is my opportunity to build a better widget. So it's all on me for better or for worse. But I was just at a point in my life that, you know, that was something that I wanted to do. I was extremely fortunate to bring with me two associates and a paralegal, and the majority of our cases. So that helped tremendously. I can't discount that. I mean, I do laugh sometimes and say, you know, we just changed email addresses and computers. We had all been working together on these cases. So it was really a seamless transition. And, you know, I would have made the move without them, but it helped tremendously that they were willing to take this leap of faith with me, and that made all the difference.
Ray: Without giving away the store, are there trends you see in class action litigation on the plaintiff side that sort of, you know, spark curiosity in you in areas that you're looking to explore?
Jean: Without a doubt, the advent of AI, that's just going to be the next explosion in cases. You know, we've done data breach cases for a long time. Those are still around, but now we're focusing more on the data misuse. You know, your apps that take a lot of data and either sell account information or sell data or allow access. That's the next wave. We're seeing a new wave with AI technology companies. I know the Lieff Cabraser firm and some others recently filed a case against Grok for the images that they take of children and turn them into fake images. And that's just going to be the tip of the iceberg that we're going to see with AI out there, with these tech companies being able to manipulate data, manipulate photos, likenesses. I think that's going to be the next wave. And it's not giving away the store because everyone is talking about it because we all know that it's coming. We all know that it's on the horizon. And we will only be successful if we all work together, you know, in these cases to build a better future for our kids and to ensure that there are some limitations and restrictions on the use of data.
Ray: You know, class actions haven't always had the best, been the most popular tools, you know, just amongst, you know, American consumers generally, but then you're also intersecting with AI, which I cannot think of a more unpopular product right now. It just seems like it's an interesting moment, you know. And I'm not sure how you sort of intersect with that or capitalize on it as a lawyer, but it must be something to think about.
Jean: Oh, absolutely. And, you know, we're even seeing consumers use AI. We will now see objections to class actions that are clearly written by Claude or Harvey or ChatGPT. And we also see clients and consumers tell us that they have fed questions into AI products, and you know, they come back and say, well, you know, you should be arguing XYZ, or why, you know, this is a case that I want to pursue, and here's the angle. And it's clearly written by AI. It has some benefits, but there's a lot of negativity and a lot of negative hurdles to overcome to, you know, teach consumers that a law degree and experience is actually better than what Claude and Harvey told you about your potential case. And also, if it hallucinates a case, if they're pro se and go before a judge, you know, the judge will just probably, you know, throw it out. If you do that, it will be a different conversation.
Ray: So that would be... correct. Yeah. A completely different circumstance. Yeah. I want to pivot a bit and talk about Class of Our Own, which just finished — I believe it's its 4th year last month.
Jean: Celebrating our 4th year, yes.
Ray: And this is, uh, your brainchild. Tell me about constructing, you know, when did you come up with the idea and what was the genesis of it?
Jean: Class of Our Own is my pride and joy. I don't have children. I say that Class of Our Own is my child. Class of Our Own is a legal summit for female lawyers who handle class action cases. It is an invitation-only event. We started our first year with 100 people. This year, just several weeks ago — we've always had it in Nashville — this year, we had 140 attendees. And we have, I think my last count was 46 people on a wait list to get in. And it was about five years ago from this point that I just started thinking that I was looking for a conference or summit where people were sharing ideas, exchanging ideas, and that just wasn't there. I just was not finding that. And the more I thought about it, the more I thought that, you know, women didn't have an adequate space. Men go on golf trips and everything, but the women don't really have opportunities to get together. And I just decided that it was something that I thought was needed, and I was hopeful that I wasn't the only one. I've just been pleasantly surprised of how women have embraced it. It has become what it has because of the wonderful attendees that we have.
Also, a need to mention that the conference is provided free of charge to the attendees. They only have to pay their travel costs. And we're able to do that through the help of our sponsors and law firms who sponsor. We have vendor sponsorships. But once someone gets there, we provide all meals and activities and everything. And that was important to me because I did not want young associates to have a financial barrier preventing them from coming. I wanted them to be able to go to the partners of their firm and say, I want to attend this, and all it's going to cost me is hotel and airfare to get there. And that's not a hard ask, that's hard for partners to say no.
But it's Class of Our Own. We also call it coup, or informally, it has become a movement of sort. And the ladies there are just inspirational. I was last week at another conference, and we had 10 coup ladies in attendance, and we all got together, you know, for drinks. And we've been asked to kind of have more formal get-togethers across the country during the year because people say once a year is not enough to see each other. So we're hoping like with the upcoming AAJ conference, that we'll have a little coup time for ladies who are attending to get together. And, you know, because it's really just this sisterhood. Once you're in, you're in, and you have the protection and support of everyone. So again, I could go on for hours and hours talking about it because it is my pride and joy. I just, I love it.
Ray: I may be connecting dots here that don't deserve connecting, but you discussed as a young associate having an approach on Daubert that got ignored. And you know, it could have been due to your age, could have been due to your gender, it's probably due to both. What do you try to impress upon younger female attorneys now to make sure that their voice is being heard or that they have the confidence to, you know, at least state their opinion and let the chips fall where they may? And do you think there's been progress?
Jean: I do think there's been progress. I think that there's a whole lot more. If you come to the evening events of coup, you'll see me kind of maybe crazily dressed. I lean into a theme. We love themes, and I'll lean into the theme. And this year, we had a glow party, and my hat lit up, and my skirt lit up, and my tennis shoes lit up. And I may look a little crazy, but what I'm hoping is that the younger women in the room will see that and feel comfortable enough to express themselves. I feel like if I go way over the top, that maybe it will help them, provide some comfort and just being, you know, it's a trendy word to say their authentic self, but to be comfortable with who they are and standing up for themselves. And I think it's kind of a quiet messaging that I'm hoping that they also understand that they do have the support of their coup sisters. You know, before I joined AWKO, I was typically the only female or one of, you know, just a handful of females in a firm. And I came to AWKO with 10 female partners and countless female associates. And it's just wonderful. I mean, at this stage in my career, to have never had that before, it's amazing. But I also realize that I'm very lucky, and not many women have that. They're still, you know, one or two of the only associates in that. So I want the young associates to draw strength from their coup sisters and know that they have support outside of their firm and will stand with them and back them up, for them to stand strong in their beliefs and their positions.
Ray: With that, Jean Martin of Aylstock, Witkin, Kreis & Overholtz, thank you so much for joining the podcast today. Really appreciate your time.
Thanks for listening to this episode of Raising the Bar with RebuttalPR. Don't forget to subscribe and follow to join us next time. See you then.
